Responding to an ability on the stack

When a creature is tapped and an ability is activated it`s my understanding that the ability is placed on the stack and happens regardless of whether the creature who activated it is still alive. Here`s two separate scenarios

1. You play Jenara, Asura of War, she is 3/3 with a pump ability, you pay 2 mana add a +1/+1 counter to her.

In response your opponent casts lightning bolt top stacking it

Jenara dies.

Then the +1/+1 pump resloves but since Jenara is already dead she's an illegal target and counters fizzle.



2. You play llanowar elves (tap to add one green mana to your pool)

You tap your elves and +1 green mana is put on the stack

In response your opponent casts lightning bolt top stacking it

L.bolt resolved, your elves die

Now your elves ability is at the top of the stack, it resolves and you get your 1 green mana



I'm fairly certain this is the correct order of operations but I'd love it if someone could link to a confirmed reference.

At the last draft I activated an elvish piper to cheat in a craw wurm and in response she was hit with an L.bolt, I should get my creature in regardless, correct?

Your llanowar elves example is a seperate case because abilities that produce mana use seperate rules. Tapping anything to produce mana, even creatures, does not use the stack and happens immediately.

Quote :

112.4. Some activated abilities and some triggered abilities are mana abilities. Mana abilities follow
special rules: They don’t use the stack, and, under certain circumstances, a player can activate mana
abilities even if he or she doesn’t have priority. See rule 605, “Mana Abilities.”

605.3b An activated mana ability doesn’t go on the stack, so it can’t be targeted, countered, or
otherwise responded to. Rather, it resolves immediately after it is activated. (See rule 405.3c.)

As for the elvish piper example it looks like you are correct and the wurm should still hit the table.

Quote :

112.3b Activated abilities have a cost and an effect. They are written as “[Cost]: [Effect.]
[Activation restriction (if any).]” A player may activate such an ability whenever he or she has
priority. Doing so puts it on the stack, where it remains until it’s countered, it resolves, or it
otherwise leaves the stack. See rule 602, “Activating Activated Abilities.”

112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source.
Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to
target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any
activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect
needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it
will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the
zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still
perform the action even though it no longer exists.

Rule 112.7a confirms your example by saying that removal of the source of an ability after it is activated won't affect the ability.

So... when to lightning bolt? I can't think of a way to prevent elvish piper's ability from resolving since it is instant speed and goes on the stack regardless of what happens to the piper.

Excellent job on the citation, looks like you have to deal with the piper before the next turn because as soon as sickness wears off something's coming into play, removal or not and the creature can't even be counter spelled because it's put directly into play not cast.

I am thinking that activating Blinding Mage's ability to tap the piper in response to your opponent activating the piper's ability should work since the piper's ability requires the piper to tap in order to activate. The mage tapping the piper would happen first, so then the piper's ability couldn't activate. What do you think?

I think you'd be in the same situation:


You activate blinding mage, I tap the piper in response top stacking my ability.

or

I activate the piper, you use blinding mage top stacking me however the pipers ability has already been activated so it's on the stack anyway.


Either way once the cost has been payed it's irreverent if the piper survives or not because the requirments of the ability have been met and it's trigger is now on the stack.

It only matters when removing the creature will prevent your opponent from being able to pay the cost of the ability for example:

Vampire hexmage (Sacrifice Vampire Hexmage: Remove all counters from target permanent.) or if your actions will cause a creatures health to drop below zero at any point.

If you top stack an L.bolt after they sacrifice their vampire, it will die before it's ability resolves so when it top stacks they'll have nothing left to sacrifice making them unable to pay the ability's cost so it will fizzle.

And that's not even bringing priority into account. When I start my turn I have priority, until I pass priority you can only respond to actions not initiate them. So when I tap the piper for her ability you are responding to it being put on the stack. In short the deed is already done, the cost paid and her being alive when it top stacks is not a necessary requirement.

My apologies if this post was redundant I just haven't gotten around to typing up a quality post about priority yet, I think it'll clear up a lot of things but it can be a confusing concept and I don't want to put anything up until I find a well worded and detailed explanation from a wizards source.

Here is one example that I've seen happen in the shop so I'll throw this up for now, it's from the wizards forums Q/A section

Q: If my friend plays a garruk, can i lightning bolt it before he can use any of his abilities?

A: Assuming he played it on his own turn in the normal way, no. After Garruk resolves, he will get priority next, not you. He can then play one of its abilities, and the cost of that ability (adding or removing counters) is paid when he announces it, not when it resolves. The soonest you could play the Bolt is in response to this action. Thus, you won't be able to stop him using one of Garruk's first two abilities, and Garruk will even survive the experience if it's the first ability he chooses to use.


Q: In my new vampire deck I'm playing with the vampire 2/1 first strike that you can sacrifice to remove all counter from target permanent ( Vampire Hexmage ). I attack a scute mob (1/1) with 5 counter +1/+1 on it. Can I attack it, then after my first strike damage, but before the scute bug do normal damage, sacrifice my vampire to remove all the counter on the scute bug since the first strike damage and the normal damage is deal at 2 different time?

A: Yes. Players gain priority in each combat damage step, after damage has been dealt.

I agree that priority is an important concept to try and understand to move forward and bring your game up to the next level.

One thing I'm wondering, and this has happened in many of our games Warren, is for those cards like Vampire Hexmage (or Qasali Pridemage) that have "Sacrifice 'Self'" to cast their ability, I'm almost thinking that the sacrificing part is a 'cost.' Like Qasali Pridemage for example says "(1 colorless mana) & Sac Qasali Pridemage: Destroy target artifact or enchantment." Now I don't know how it would work, but I was under the assumption that costs were always paid up front, so even though its true that their ability goes on the stack, the cost is paid regardless of whether or not it resolves, and if sac'ing said creature is indeed part of the 'cost' then wouldn't it be impossible to kill the creature in response to the ability being played?

If Sacrificing the creature is part of its activation cost, then you cant do anything to stop that ability short of a few cards that counter activated abilities because you cant respond to a player paying the cost of his/her activated ability.

Warren "The Proxy" Hallam wrote:

Q: In my new vampire deck I'm playing with the vampire 2/1 first strike that you can sacrifice to remove all counter from target permanent ( Vampire Hexmage ). I attack a scute mob (1/1) with 5 counter +1/+1 on it. Can I attack it, then after my first strike damage, but before the scute bug do normal damage, sacrifice my vampire to remove all the counter on the scute bug since the first strike damage and the normal damage is deal at 2 different time?

A: Yes. Players gain priority in each combat damage step, after damage has been dealt.

Sorry to say warren but with new rules that cards with first strike even though they get a separate phase in the combat step cannot deal damage then be sacrificed, you cannot activate abilities in the combat step until the end after all damage has been dealt regardless of first-strike or double-strike.

Phase 1. assigning damage

Phase 2. First strike/doublestrike combat damage

phase 3. regular damage

phase 4. abilities triggered by being damaged

phase 5. spells and activated abilities

ill show you in the comp rule book if we can ever use the comp at abby sports

Yeah I wish I could find the post detailing the first strike/sac thing unfortunately there's so many posts on wizards rules fourms things quickly get pushed off the page and become impossible to find again, I just copy pasted that blurb from a note I made when I first saw the post but I can't find the original thread anymore to confirm or deny

IMO wizards should have regional referees who visit stores every few months to answer questions and ensure the game is being played properly. At the very least they should send a Magic bible filled with answers to common question, scenarios and case by case card descriptions for triggers that have complex effects (such as warp world)

As it stands now I spend almost as much time hunting down rulings as I do playing the game and if it turns abilities can't be prevented then basically everyone in the store has been playing incorrectly for the past 3-5 months which makes my head explode

Warren "The Proxy" Hallam wrote:

IMO wizards should have regional referees who visit stores every few months to answer questions and ensure the game is being played properly. At the very least they should send a Magic bible filled with answers to common question, scenarios and case by case card descriptions for triggers that have complex effects (such as warp world)

As it stands now I spend almost as much time hunting down rulings as I do playing the game and if it turns abilities can't be prevented then basically everyone in the store has been playing incorrectly for the past 3-5 months which makes my head explode

Heheh, it's so like Yugioh it's scary.
Basically in Yugioh (although it's called a CHAIN instead of a stack) it still resolves the same, also in Yugioh you can kill or destroy the thing as it comes out but if it's ability is activating you need to cancel or negate it. Basically unless you're negating the effect it still happens.

Elvish Piper is a good example of this. Unless you cause Elvish Piper to tap BEFORE the player activates it then it's ability can't be stopped. From what I have seen, tapping creatures is pretty much un-counterable. So unless Magic makes some kind of blue spell that stops a creatures ability to tap itself to activate an effect then it'll pretty much forever be utter chaos.

For anyone who started playing magic recently here is a card that stops tap abilites.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97077

Here is another card that can counter activated abilities.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46558

I agree with Church that you can't do the first strike damage then sack the Hexmage to use its ability. After reading over the new rules a couple of times I would say they prevent spells and abilities from being played/used after combat damage starts getting assigned.

Mogg Fanatic is probably the most famous example of what they were trying to correct in the new rules. People used to always block with the Mogg Fanatic, take another creature down with it, then sack it to do another point of damage to another creature and kill it to. New players would look kinda puzzled and ask "how can a dead creature cause 1 point of damage to another creature after its been killed ?"

Refer to the Vampire Hexmage thread for my explanation of how she can be sacrificed in combat.

Mogg Fanatic does not have first/double strike and therefore can not be sacrificed after combat damage is assigned (rule 510.2).

Sipherus wrote:

For anyone who started playing magic recently here is a card that stops tap abilites.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97077

That would definitely work.

Bump for Adam.

I still see no proof about brandons question about the pridemage.

It would be totally broken if you cannot exile him in response.

Sacrificing him is in his abilities cost. If he is dead or exiled you cannot sac him, you cannot pay the cost, you cannot trigger the ability, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Ah.

I see now.

Costs are paid up front. And priority dictates that I cannot respond to costs being paid. So I'd be exiling him is after its all on the stack, good work sam and warren.

Like I said, thats kind of broken though. They will need to make more spells that counter abilities or can interrupt priority.

Quote :

112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source.
Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to
target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any
activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect
needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it
will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the
zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still
perform the action even though it no longer exists.

did you read that part?

damnit you had to go and post 5 seconds before I could get the upper hand