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 Doubling Tokens that die

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Guitar Hero

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PostSubject: Doubling Tokens that die   Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:46 am

Some cards ie: minion reflector or nactl war pride make tokens that die at end of turn

If i create copies of said tokens with rhys the redeemed, would they die too?

people have been telling me they dont.
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Sipherus



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PostSubject: Re: Doubling Tokens that die   Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:22 am

The minion reflector tokens have an ability that forces you to sac them at end of turn.
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PostSubject: Re: Doubling Tokens that die   Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:52 am

thank you for clarifying.

If I double them with rhys do those tokens die too?
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Sam



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PostSubject: Re: Doubling Tokens that die   Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:08 pm

Doubling Season
Quote :
The tokens and counters that Doubling Season creates are exact copies of the kind of tokens and counters that were being created in the first place.
Minion Reflector
Quote :
The copiable values of the token's characteristics are the same as the copiable values of the characteristics of the creature it's copying, plus haste and "At end of turn, sacrifice this permanent." That means if something becomes a copy of the token, it will also have haste and it will also have to be sacrificed at the end of the turn.
Comprehensive Rules
Quote :
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.

Minion Reflector adds "Haste" and "At end of turn, sacrifice this permanent" to whatever it has copied. These are not copiable values as they are not printed on the copied object. Therefore, Doubling Season does not copy these attributes. The tokens created by Rhys do not copy these attributes either.

Tokens copied by Rhys only copy the copiable values of the tokens that were copied (name, mana cost, card type, subtype, supertype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty). The "haste" and "sac this perm" added by Minion Reflector are not copied.
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PostSubject: Re: Doubling Tokens that die   Thu Aug 12, 2010 3:52 pm

The minion reflector rules that you quoted sam says "That means if something becomes a copy of the token, it will also have haste and it will also have to be sacrificed at the end of the turn."
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Sam



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PostSubject: Re: Doubling Tokens that die   Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:59 pm

The token(s) created by Minion Reflector or Nactl War Pride have the "sac at end of turn" clause given to them by the reflector or the war pride respectively, it is not written expressly in their "rules text". Thus, "sac at end of turn" is not a copiable value and any copies made of those tokens do not have to be "sacced at end of turn".

Imagine I have a 2/2 wolf token in play with a +1/+1 counter on it. If I copy that token, I will get a plain 2/2 wolf token, with no +1/+1 counter. This is the same situation. The +1/+1 was granted by something else and so is not a copiable value.
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